Monday, July 31, 2006

Platonic Relationships

Stimulus:

A blog discussion about platonic inter-gender relationships where arguments were made based on the following quotes:

“V’al tarbeh sichah im ha’isha” (Pirkei Avos 1,5)

“And do not engage in excessive conversation with the woman”

“Vehamistakel afillu b’etzbah ketanah shel isha”(Even Ha’ezer 21,1)

(A prohibition against) “One who looks even at the little finger of a woman”

My Take:

Quotes in general, and particularly from Torah, must remain in context. The stipulation that a man may not look even at a woman's little finger is qualified as applying specifically when looking would be associated with carnal pleasure.

The fact is that members of both genders are permitted to be in public, and men are not required to wear blindfolds. If however a man is particularly sensitive to the sight of any part of a woman’s body, he is obligated to avoid any such exposure.

The abovementioned Mishnah clearly forbids excessive conversation between men and women, but do keep in mind that "Excessive conversation" is relative. Perhaps a reason for the ambiguity is that the exact location where the line must be drawn is variable for different individuals. Whilst a halachah may not be dismissed because one feels they are above it or that the reason does not apply to them, when a halachah is stated ambiguously lechatchilah, the halachah itself is leaving room for interpretation based on personal standing. This interpretation requires extreme caution and absolute honesty with one's self, combined with direction from a reliable Rav or Mashpiah.

Shulchan aruch states: "Tzarich Ha'adam l'hisrachek me'hanashim meod meod" (Even Ha'ezer 21,1). The shulchan aruch continues to list things that are forbidden under the umbrella of this halacha and includes 'flirting.' It does not forbid merely talking to a woman, nor does it forbid being polite or greeting a neighbor.

Consider a scenario where one knows of a mixed Jewish social event where there will be a large number of young adults who may be receptive to inspirational divrei Torah, but as of yet there are none planned and the event is purely social. I do not think it would be out of place for an individual who is comfortable that they will not suffer any downfalls as a result of attending the event, to go and present divrei Torah.

Of course it is necessary that the individual be absolutely certain in their belief that they are strong enough, and have the approval of their Rav or Mashpiah. But if one is honestly certain; is it in the best interest of avodas Hashem to have all the Yidden at the event miss out on divrei Torah and eat from zivchei mesim - the sacrifices of idols (Pirkei Avos 3,3) ? **

In the order of the world we currently live in, to spread the light of Torah and increase the volume of Torah and Mitzvos being observed, it is at times necessary that one interact with members of the opposite gender -obviously within the boundaries of halacha.

In a personal inter-gender relationship where there is no specific avodas Hashem-related intention, one has to ask themselves why they are entering into it, platonic or not. After all it does say in shulchan aruch that man must distance himself from woman very very much.


**Care must be taken that one is not providing an excuse for an unsanctioned event by presenting divrei Torah. There have been precarious scenarios where anti-religious organizations may have used the presence of divrei Torah to support their competition with frum organizations.

16 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

i know this is a little out of context, but why is it that guys cant talk to girls before marraige (and girls to guys?). i understand you think that touching is an act of intamacy, etc, which i guess does make sence - but why not just talking? (p.s. im not religious, and trying to understand)

31/7/06 10:08 PM

 
Blogger Dr Sooll said...

Good question Gid, not out of context at all. comment coming.....but Im flat out and it may be a while till I get the chance.

1/8/06 12:26 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thanks. cant wait to hear your approach.

1/8/06 9:13 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wishing you all a good fast

2/8/06 10:29 PM

 
Blogger anonym00kie said...

gid, an incredible book that deals with intimacy is manis friedmans book 'Doesnt anyone blush anymore.' it will blow you away, its incredibly deep and insightful.

dr sooll, thanks for putting these quotes in context

4/8/06 12:28 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymookie - thanks so much
dr sooll - still waiting for your insights

4/8/06 9:52 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gid - you happen to be right. there is no halacha about talking to the opposite sex. this is just a "boundry" for preventing something that could happen as a result. in my opinion, if you know you will not come to the prohibition, then go ahead.

4/8/06 10:20 PM

 
Blogger Dr Sooll said...

Sorry about the wait Gid,
it is on the way. within a day or two I hope.

6/8/06 2:09 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is one of the main things that i dont think i will ever get. like to hear your opinion...

7/8/06 5:07 PM

 
Blogger Dr Sooll said...

Sorry again about the wait. Im going overseas for a year this week, and have so many things on my head all to get done in no time, but it is on the way. if not before, I'll have plenty of time on the flight, so definitely before the weekend.

7/8/06 7:04 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please dont worry. no rush at all. thanks.

7/8/06 11:56 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

g-d created guys and girls, and no matter what you say or try to do, the world works that we are goin to have feelings for each other. i understand we shouldnt act on anything till marraige, but talking?! what the hell! whats wrong with that?

8/8/06 10:44 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

someone once gave me a similarity saying, that its like putting non kosher food infront of your face. you cant have it so why torture yourself!?

9/8/06 7:33 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what constitudes a "shidduch date"?!

10/8/06 10:28 PM

 
Blogger Dr Sooll said...

Biologically, the sole purpose of any individual organism is to ensure the continuation of its species, and every organism has been endowed with particular instincts and mechanisms that enable it to fulfill this role. In the animal kingdom, nutrition is ensured by the discomfort experienced during hunger, respiration by the pain of suffocation, and the list goes on. One does not actually experience a desire for nutrients when hungry or the need for oxygen when suffocating, merely the desire to eat or to breathe. Likewise, all animals experience an urge to engage in activities associated with the continuation of their species i.e. procreation, and because the need to reproduce if the most biologically fundamental, the urge to engage in the associated activities reigns supreme.

Being intellectual animals and creatures of imagination, humans have a tendency to take the basic natural urges that all animals have far beyond the limits required by the basic biological functions that they serve. The desire to eat to satisfy hunger is exaggerated supporting a multi-billion dollar (biologically unnecessary) culinary industry, and the need to defend oneself against predators has been grossly distorted, resulting in wars the likes of which are unheard of outside of the human species. Likewise, the extent to which the human mind can extrapolate the desire to engage in procreative activity is virtually endless.

Such activity (reproductive) is not only allowed but is encouraged in Judaism, and raising a family is a fundamental element is service of G-d. However as with all activities, there are guidelines. The observance of not only monogamy but extra-marital celibacy is paramount in Judaism, and whilst encouraged, procreative activity must take place within the boundaries of marriage. Being so, and being that it is an intrinsic element of man’s constitution that he has an colossal weakness for woman (and vice versa), it is important that individuals of opposite genders avoid at all costs, any scenario that might create temptation for unsanctioned physical interaction.

So why can’t we talk???


A wise man once said:
If a man and a woman are together in a scenario where they could potentially engage in carnal activity and nothing – not even a flash of such thought passes through either of their heads at all, then there is a serious problem.

(-I’m not sure of the original source of the statement, but it is certainly on the mark)

Essentially there is nothing wrong with talking to individuals of the opposite gender, and certainly not with politely greeting one another or stopping to help with directions (etc.). However if two such individuals do have a relationship on a person level, the likelihood that neither will ever experience any form of imagined carnal thought whatsoever –even be it completely unrealistic, is extremely slim.

Indeed the majority of such thoughts when they do occur do not result in subsequent action. However due to the extent of the natural urge and the resulting temptation, as well as the importance of the prohibition, extra-marital inter-gender relationships on a personal level, are strongly discouraged.

This issue is relevant both for single and married individuals However it is often emphasized more for those who are single; as being unmarried, their only acceptable response to such temptation is complete and total self-control. To successfully exercise this degree self-control consistently in the face of such temptation would be an immense challenge, and the realistic probability of a prohibition being transgressed by a single individual is far greater

12/8/06 1:43 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thank you very much. you have a very unique way of explaining things to people. i dont even have a response, which is quite shoking. thanks again!

13/8/06 10:40 AM

 

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