What's the big deal about talking anyway?
Query:
"...why is it that guys cant talk to girls before marraige (and girls to guys?). i understand you think that touching is an act of intamacy, etc, which i guess does make sence - but why not just talking? (p.s. im not religious, and trying to understand)"
Response:
Biologically, the sole purpose of any individual organism is to ensure the continuation of its species, and every organism has been endowed with particular instincts and mechanisms that enable it to fulfill this role. In the animal kingdom, nutrition is ensured by the discomfort experienced during hunger, respiration by the pain of suffocation, and the list goes on. One does not actually experience a desire for nutrients when hungry or the need for oxygen when suffocating, merely the desire to eat or to breathe. Likewise, all animals experience an urge to engage in activities associated with the continuation of their species i.e. procreation, and because the need to reproduce if the most biologically fundamental, the urge to engage in the associated activities reigns supreme.
Being intellectual animals and creatures of imagination, humans have a tendency to take the basic natural urges that all animals have far beyond the limits required by the basic biological functions that they serve. The desire to eat to satisfy hunger is exaggerated supporting a multi-billion dollar (biologically unnecessary) culinary industry, and the need to defend oneself against predators has been grossly distorted, resulting in wars the likes of which are unheard of outside of the human species. Likewise, the extent to which the human mind can extrapolate the desire to engage in procreative activity is virtually endless.
Such activity (reproductive) is not only allowed but is encouraged in Judaism, and raising a family is a fundamental element is service of G-d. However as with all activities, there are guidelines. The observance of not only monogamy but extra-marital celibacy is paramount in Judaism, and whilst encouraged, procreative activity must take place within the boundaries of marriage. Being so, and being that it is an intrinsic element of man’s constitution that he has an colossal weakness for woman (and vice versa), it is important that individuals of opposite genders avoid at all costs, any scenario that might create temptation for unsanctioned physical interaction.
So why can’t we talk???
A wise man once said:
If a man and a woman are together in a scenario where they could potentially engage in carnal activity and nothing – not even a flash of such thought passes through either of their heads at all, then there is a serious problem.
(-I’m not sure of the original source of the statement, but it is certainly on the mark)
Essentially there is nothing wrong with talking to individuals of the opposite gender, and certainly not with politely greeting one another or stopping to help with directions (etc.). However if two such individuals do have a relationship on a person level, the likelihood that neither will ever experience any form of imagined carnal thought whatsoever –even be it completely unrealistic, is extremely slim.
Indeed the majority of such thoughts when they do occur do not result in subsequent action. However due to the extent of the natural urge and the resulting temptation, as well as the importance of the prohibition, extra-marital inter-gender relationships on a personal level are strongly discouraged.
This issue is relevant both for single and married individuals However it is often emphasized more for those who are single; as being unmarried, their only acceptable response to such temptation is complete and total self-control. To successfully exercise this degree self-control consistently in the face of such temptation would be an immense challenge, and the realistic probability of a prohibition being transgressed by a single individual is far greater
25 Comments:
thank you very much. you have a very unique way of explaining things to people. i dont even have a response, which is quite shoking. thanks again!
14/8/06 11:48 AM
Thank you. I'm glad it helped.
14/8/06 11:59 AM
so the question now is - what do we do if we already do talk to the opposite sex? you cant just one morning wake up and stop!
14/8/06 4:30 PM
Anon:
Are you asking hypothetically or practically?
(only asking ebcause Im flat out but if you are asking practically I will make more of an effort to have a response sooner)
15/8/06 8:41 PM
practically. i got into this whole thing, and now i dontk now what to do... (yes, i know how vauge that sounds)
15/8/06 9:26 PM
Good thing the Dr. is here to help you!
15/8/06 11:31 PM
It does sound vague, but that's because it is a very broad issue.
I will do my best to get something up here asap -I have very recent intimate experience with this issue, and hope it will be of help.
16/8/06 1:07 AM
Thanx Nemo ;)
16/8/06 1:08 AM
Anon,
Just before i put something together, there a couple of details that could help guide my respoonse.
Is there currently any inapropriate physical interaction involved, or is it just talking? (-good thing you can be anonymous huh?)
Are you male of female?
16/8/06 4:53 AM
k basiclly there is no physical interaction. just talking. but ALOT of it. we go out often aswell. the weird part is, i dont usually do this kinda stuff. but now that we have gotten so close, how can i just break it off? o ye, and im a female ;)
thanks again for your help!
16/8/06 5:36 AM
anon 101 - just thought id let you know that i was in a simiilar situation a while ago. im not sure exactly what your sitch is, but with me i was friends with a whole bunch of guys (nothing ever serious), and then when i decided to stop - it was VERY hard! with me, i just spoke to them about it. most of them understood and respected me for my decision. if your friends dont, well then... they will just have to get used to it. sure, its weird when u see them around and stuff - extremly awkward. with me, i didnt totally ignore them. i was polite, with the how are you's, etc, and then eventually we just drifted apart and had nothing really to talk about. the important thing for you you know is that with something like this it wont happen overnight. you cant just one morning wake up and decided that you dont want to talk to anyone anymore. it takes time - slowly distant yourselves away from them (if your confortable then talk to them about it so they understand), and slowly over time youll loose contact. good luck, we are all here to support you and know how hard it is.
dr sooll - cant wait to see what you put together
16/8/06 5:48 AM
ive spoken to girls many times without those thoughts goin through my head. and whats the big deal? just like u hold yourself back from talking to them, i hold myself back from acting on it. both are hard. both call for restraint.
16/8/06 10:22 PM
great post.
its true that we can hold back..
and it might not be a big deal...
but..
time after time after time of holding back...
can/will eventually wear us down.
dr sooll, i do have another point also, and its about intimacy. its not only about physical prohibitions, theres also the fact that you want to save being intimate (emotionally, spiritualy, mentally..) with the person you want to spend your life with. everytime youre intimate with someone else, you slowly chip away at the special r/s youll have with your spouse.
17/8/06 12:10 AM
Mookie:
Thanx.
I agree with you completely that having an intimate relationship prior to marriage reduces the extent to which two individuals can share themselves totally and exclusively with each other. Hence, although two individuals can have a beautiful marriage despite prior involvement in intimate relationships, the richness and intensity of the bond formed between two individuals who have never shared their true selves with anyone else will be immeasurably greater.
-the context of the original was post was non-intimate personal relationships i.e. platonic friendships; where despite the lack of intimacy, the interaction goes beyond politeness. Once a relationship becomes personal, the development of ‘chemistry’ or mere ‘carnal temptation’ becomes much more likely.
Anon101 and Anonymous: response in progress.
17/8/06 7:17 AM
dr sooll, there is intimacy even in platonic friendships.. that was .my. point.
we assume intimacy only comes in a romantic relationship but the truth is, there can be plenty of intimacy even in a platonic r/s, and that can affect you later one when you want to get married..
17/8/06 1:04 PM
i would just like to thank all the contributers to this discussion. you may thing its just something to write about. but im taking this whole thing very seriosly, and thinking about it. its making a difference. everyone keep up the good work!
17/8/06 10:19 PM
anonymous, an amazing book on intimacy and relationships is 'doesnt anyone blush anymore' if you havent read it yet - GET IT. its really an incredible book.
17/8/06 10:42 PM
thanks so much.
17/8/06 10:51 PM
On behalf of all the readers of this blog i would like to take this opportunity to thank dr sooll for all the hard work he puts into this blog, and all the time and effort he puts into each responce! its greatly appreciated!!! keep up the good work! makin me proud!! ;)
18/8/06 6:09 AM
Advice to Anon101
Objective: To eliminate personal inter-gender relationships.
One issue to consider is that suddenly alienating friends may offend/upset them, and it does say in Pirkei Avos –Ethics of Our Fathers (3,10) ‘All that one’s fellow finds pleasant, The Omnipresent finds pleasant.’ Generally in life, it is pleasing to G-d when we are pleasant towards our peers, so whenever a ‘situation’ can be resolved without offending anyone it is certainly preferable to do so. This does not apply however, when at the expense of transgression of a prohibition.
Depending on the natures of the guys involved, it may be productive to politely inform them that you have made a decision to end your inter-gender relationships. If they are not going to accept that and you want to avoid offending them, as C advises, if you keep your input / involvement in a relationship consistently as minimal as possible, most likely the friendship will dissipate. But it is crucial that you make an effort to be consistent, for as long as contact is maintained, it is easy to unintentionally revert back to previous levels of friendship.
Being female, there is one other matter of serious concern that it is important for you to consider when deciding just how quickly to phase out these friendships. The Torah states (Vayikra/Leviticus 19,14) “Before a blind man, do not place a stumbling block”. The exact wording of the original text implies grammatically, that there is additional non-literal meaning that is also to be inferred from the commandment. Commentaries teach that one is forbidden to tempt an individual to transgress any prohibition, especially so when it is a particular weakness of theirs.
Every healthy man has an unavoidable innate weakness for women, and even if you could take it for granted that no inappropriate physical interaction will occur in your relationship, take into account the following:
Deliberately discharging semen in vain (i.e. outside of matrimonially sanction copulation) is the gravest sin in the entire Torah, and is likened to murder (Kitzur Shulchan Aruch - The Classic Guide to Jewish Law, ch.151 par.1); in addition to leaving the subject impure and requiring that he undergo ritual immersion in a mikvah. Maintaining a relationship that could result in temptation to transgress this sin is categorically prohibited.
One may not think that the guys she interacts with would be involved in such prohibited activity, but do not underestimate the temptation for a single adult male who has no acceptable release once his body has responded to a particular stimulus, and do not underestimate the frequency and sensitivity with which any celibate young man's body may respond to such stimuli -even against his will . He must exert (quite literally) supernatural restraint to abstain from committing the gravest of all sins. In addition to being extremely unfair, it is forbidden to put a man in such a position. So whist trying not to offend anyone, remember:
Time is of the essence! Every encounter is a risk, and no matter how well you know a guy, nor how unlikely it may seem, you never know……………..
18/8/06 6:42 AM
Thanx c
18/8/06 7:21 AM
powerful stuff...
18/8/06 7:45 AM
ye, but that prohibition could occur even when a guy is walking randomly past a girl in the street? you cant be at fault! and anyway, how does all this fit in when you are goin on shidduchim dates? the same thing could happen there 2...
18/8/06 6:40 PM
i dont think a girl can be held responsible for what a guy does unless she specifically and purposely does something to provoke a reaction, or she deosnt follow torah guidelines which are given to us to prevent such a reaction.
19/8/06 6:16 AM
I second what anonym00kie says. One is not to blame for an undesirable outcome that results from their going about their day to day lives as they should. If however one is involved in activities they are not supposed to be and consequently increases the temptation for another to transgress a prohibition, that would be a sin.
19/8/06 6:29 AM
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